Thorough Examinations Podcast Ep 1 Transcript

Welcome to the first episode of Thorough Examinations, a podcast from CFTS where we explore the importance of equipment inspections, safety, and industry standards for forklift trucks, telehandlers, tractors and other lifting equipment.

I'm Adrian, I'm joined by Simon.

How you doing?

And we’re kicking off this series with a focus on the agricultural sector following our visit to the LAMMA show 2025.

Agricultural is an industry where lifting equipment plays a vital role. But how well do operators and businesses understand their responsibilities when it comes to safety and compliance? That's what we set out to discover.

In this episode, we'll hear from experts, CFTS members and attendees at LAMMA about their views on thorough examinations, their understanding of LOLER and PUWER, and how we can improve safety across the sector.

We'll also discuss some key takeaways from the event and what they mean for those using agricultural equipment.

LAMMA is the UK's largest agricultural machinery show, bringing together thousands of farmers, manufacturers, and suppliers. It's a great opportunity for us all to see the latest in farm developments, farming equipment, and we get a chance to talk about the crucial side of things, about safety and compliance.

This year CFTS was there to raise the awareness about the importance of a full, thorough examination. Not just a LOLER, but also PUWER and what that means.

It's a message that needs repeating, because a lot of people still assume that they're getting a LOLER check and they're covered, when in reality it could be a very different story.

So, Simon, since this was your first show you attended being with CFTS, what was your key takeaways?

Well, first of all, I was amazed at how big the show is it's massive.

But the one thing I noticed through the two days of talking to people and being on the stand, we had general inquiries, etc., but there was still basically, an observation that the guys still don’t know that thorough examination (i.e. LOLER and PUWER) is still a legal requirement. I had a couple of guys come up to me and actually ask how long it's been law. And as you know, 1998 was when LOLER and PUWER came out. And we're now 27 years later and people still don't know that it’s a legal requirement to get their equipment checked once a year at least.

And would you say that after they attended the stand, they've got a better understanding of what their responsibilities are? Without a doubt.

I mean, the, the amount of people that we, we saw, which for me was very surprising that the amount of attendance we got on the, on the stand. But yeah, we we were able Matthew and I were we were able to sort of, educate people into “Yes, it is a definite requirement and it's it's legal You have to do it.” And people still don't know that, you know, all these years later.

Would you say that there was a misconception that when a LOLER was carried out, the end user, i.e. the farmer, whoever you speaking to assumed that a PUWER was carried out as well? Or do they know the difference between LOLER and PUWER in general?

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people generally know quite a bit about LOLER that they have to have, a LOLER done once a year, but a thorough examination, including PUWER, a lot of companies, a lot of farmers are still not getting that done.

They think they've had a thorough done, when in reality that it's only just a LOLER, which,
as you know, it can leave people wide open to accident, injury and or ultimately prosecution.

As Simon said, a lot of people are familiar with LOLER because it ties to lifting and loading, handling, but PUWER applies to all work equipment, and it shows that the whole machine is safe to use, not just the lifting components.

We've spoken to operators who didn't realise that things like brakes, steering and structures are just as critical for compliance.

If you skip the PUWER element of a thorough examination, you could be using a machine with serious faults that put you, your workers, and your business at risk. The report of thorough examination is a critical part to the LOLER process and as it is as important as the actual inspection itself.

I wasn't at the show this year, Simon. Can you give me any examples, of where the — specifically the CFTS thorough examination documentation played a critical part in an investigation of an accident.

We had, a lady come on to the stand, and spoke to us about, an incident that happened out on their farm, which was, obviously a serious accident which involved HSE coming out and doing a site visit when they looked into everything.

Obviously, they go through everything systematically, as we know. They found that the, farm was a CFTS member, and they’d carried out the thorough examination. And through the record keeping, they knew that that piece of equipment had had a thorough test and it was compliant in every way. So they just closed the case off from there. So it just shows you that, you know, if you do follow our scheme, that we've got the backing of the HSE and it's a full scheme rather than just the bits and pieces. So like you said, the keeping of the paperwork and using the scheme to its fullest extent is, you know, it's just, it gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling that everything's been done to all the correct specs

So I imagine the, the person in question who was responsible for the machine on the farm was relieved to know that the documentation which they were supplied, was fit for purpose on a LOLER schedule one, and it was proper to the health and safety requirements.

Yes. Of course.

Again, it's one of those things we we like to prove in a way that everything has been tested to its, its correct criteria. But then that is good to give on to the end user. But then if you've got the records of that being done in, in the back office, if you like, should anything go wrong — and as we know one accident is one too many — they've got that as a backup to prove, you know that it was it was tested and it was tested correctly in the first place.

So we're saying that, quite rightly, that the responsibility to keep the thorough examination documentation is the end user or the person who's responsible for that machine on site.

Yes, of course, as we know, as part of our quality assurance procedural code, we keep those for two years.

And I think that's also a regulation under LOLER, is it?

Yes.

Yeah So the responsibility of to keep all forms of documentation to prove that the work's been done is the end user or the person who's been assigned responsibility on site.

So, if there is an unfortunate accident, the end user can prove that the work's been done. The inspections have been carried out to the correct timescale and if any defects have been identified. That proof that the work's been done. So the machine is safe to use.

Do you have any highlights from this year's show?

Yeah. I mean, like I said at the start, the the sheer size of it was was unbelievable. But we did have Mr. Clarkson. Jeremy Clarkson, was at the show on the first day. I didn't get to see him because of obviously, as you can imagine, he had a lot of people around him. But we saw Kaleb.

That's the guy.

On the, On the second day, I managed to get a picture of him as he strolled down the aisle. Again, he got a lot of interest, but it was just nice to see that these guys that you see on the TV all the time, they are real people. And, you know, you can see him in the street or at the LAMMA show. Yeah. It was just, a massive good experience for me. And and not to, to dwell on the negative because we are taking steps forward. It was bad, yeah, that the agricultural industry traditionally has had perhaps a poor understanding of LOLER, but that's a benchmark. We can now work from that and we can push that forward. And hopefully there'll be less and less, accidents in the future, less and less noncompliance. And it will bring it, you know, bring it on and flourish.

One thing which I noticed last year when I was there was, all the big players in the agricultural sector was at the show. So you JCBs, your Merlos, your Manitous. Your Magnis, etc. but what I did notice,
especially on the stand, was a lot of independent companies. i.e. sole traders who employ either themselves, or a couple of guys, and also as well small farms as well, people who own farms. And it was good to get an understanding what they thought LOLER and PUWER was, OK. Yeah. But my take home was that they didn't have a  true understanding of what their responsibilities was. So when it came to the big players, they're fully aware, of what, they should be doing as a service provider, etc..

But when it came to the smaller independent farms and dealers, what would you say was their understanding as a small independent entity?

Yeah. I mean, you're right there. A lot of the smaller guys were the ones that say “Well, do we really need this?” You know, which, of course they do, because they, they want to be safe. or we we'd have a couple of conversations, happened on both days where they'd say, well, we're only a little farm, you know, we haven't got the staff to do that, you know, which, of course, as you know, we had the the pull outs, which gave you, all the CFTS members that are in the agricultural industry. So obviously the little farms, the one man bands, if you like, or the ones with a couple of employees, they perhaps wouldn't have the amount of labour so they could have a dedicated, thorough examiner or competent person, but they could then go out and contract that out to a local member
who's obviously part of the CFTS scheme, so that they know eventually they're going to be compliant.

Which is the most important thing as we've already spoken about, LOLER, is not just the thorough examination, it's LOLER and PUWER. And of course, it it's almost I won't say more important. It's important across the whole board, but it's, it's almost more important that the, the one man bands are compliant because that very reason that it might be one guy using the plough one guy using the tractor. So of course it's it's more imperative if you like that they've got to be or work with, with safe equipment.

Yeah.

And I think in terms of the CFTS scheme, when it comes to the actual thorough examination, like, Simon said, depending on who's actually inspecting that equipment will depend on how much of a thorough examination you get when it comes to companies who were part of the CFTS scheme. Doesn’t matter what’s, whatever's in front of the inspector, they're going to inspect the entirety of the machine. So as an end user, they know that the full machine's been inspected.

Whether that falls under LOLER and PUWER It's kind of irrelevant in terms of that inspection. The entirety of the machine gets inspection, so folks public out there, the next time you getting your machine inspected, have a look to see if the inspector or the company you’ve employed are accredited to CFTS because that is a true thorough examination.

I think, one word we've mentioned it, along the podcast is consistency. You know, that if you if you use a CFTS accredited, competent person, that you could pick that person up, replace him with another competent person from CFTS, and you will get the same examination every time.

Yeah.

Which other, bodies may not give you.

Yeah.

And I think as well the, the members who are part of the CFTS scheme specialise in the equipment that they work on.
Of course.

Which is one of the most important things. You know, you get generic inspectors, shall we say, who can work on a lift or a chair lift, and then they can be working on a crane the next day. They not actually experts in their own field, which is the CFTS guys are, they they know what they're talking about because they work on this kit day in, day out, not only do they, just inspect it for a thorough examination, but they, they will have background knowledge. They will possibly service the machine as well at some point. So there's nothing better than the guy.

One thing which, I get asked quite a lot, and I'm sure Simon you’re the same, is that “Is it's a legal requirement that a different person carries out the regular maintenance and the thorough examination?”

I was going to say that's a really good point. As you know, we both train as part of our jobs. And it's one thing that one of the prerequisites, it's not the best practice, but it's always, you know, logistically, if you're traveling to the north end of Scotland, you can't always go back and do a service
and the thorough at different times. So as we stipulate in our procedural code, if you do have to carry out a thorough examination, do that first and then any service work or any work after service then is carried out. So at least we know what the if there is any criteria that we know that, it's, it's going to get picked up if we service first. Every truck would be perfect, you know, simple as that.

Yeah.

So basically take [...] on is that it's not a legal requirement. But best practice is to assign a separate person to do the regular maintenance and the thorough examination. But sometimes it's not practical to do that. Typically that's led by the end user. If the end user wants a CFTS member or an individual to to show independence, then they would request that a different person does the regular maintenance and the thorough examination, but the members are not breaking the law. If they do it on the same same time. Well, as you know, our standards are kept very high, which is what been the the thorough examination scheme as we run, if you like, is what it's all about.

But, I was about to say that, a lot of companies like your, you know, your Crowns and your Stills and your Lindes, etc, they have their own thorough examination department, whereas the smaller CFTS members might have the same guy who's carrying out all the servicing, who has to do the thoroughs as well. So logistically, it's not possible sometimes to split it up.

But so long as the TE’s carried out first, there's no problems with that as, such. As well, I like to say that when the Competent Person comes onto the training course — it's not just me and you and Matthew saying these things. Everything is backed up in black and white.

Either if it's the law or if it's guidance. So, anything which is required, in the field, i.e. our support for our members. We’re there to assist them, going forward at the end of the day. So it's not just a tick box exercise. The training is really important. It covers a lot of topics and responsibilities LOLER and PUWER, issuing the correct documentation at the correct time.

You can be the best competent person, in the world. But if you don't leave the correct documentation behind, which is fit for purpose on the LOLER schedule one, you're not keeping your customer or the end user compliant. So there's a huge benefit to be part of CFTS training, documentation and ongoing support.

Yes, of course.

And of course, not to blow our own trumpets, but the three technical managers have got a wealth of experience through. We've not just come into this trade. We've been in the trade for many, many years. So naturally you pick up a lot of experience and that comes out in the training where we talk about those, you know, those past experiences going on to customer sites, etc.

And the almost the, the funny side of it as well, which, which comes out in the interactive side of the training. It's not all about, you know, death by PowerPoint.

We have a lot of interaction with our trainees on their, whether they're doing a refresher or the thorough examination training for the first time.

Yes, so, to get a real sense of where the industry stands, we spoke to CFTS members, safety professionals and companies at LAMMA about their knowledge of thorough examinations and agricultural safety. So, let's hear what they had to say. Over to you, Ethan.

Could you introduce yourself for us, please?

I'm Noel from All Makes Mechanical.

And I'm Steve from All Makes Mechanical.

What made you become members of CFTS?

So, when we started off our own company, we needed to, have something that was, especially on the paperwork side of things that was governing, we could have a proper checklist, that we knew that we needed to work through, good guidance. We needed all the information that we could to be able to do our job to the best of our abilities. We started off on our own paperwork,
but we didn't quite work out, and we needed to get to, sign up with CFTS so we could come to a good level of standard with everything that we needed to get done.

Do you think there is a need for more education around safety regulations in agriculture?

Absolutely. Yeah. The accident rates on farms is very high and therefore equipment inspections tends to get pushed to one side.

Unfortunately they just use, everybody, they jump on the machine, use it

and then put it, park it up again at night.

And that nobody thinks to perhaps even from the basics from dipping the oils and and check checking the fluid levels right through to checking the welding, the thing, the structure of the machine make sure it is safe to use.

Yeah, I mean, that definitely gets left behind. And something that from ourselves, we can keep on top of for them. And also attending a site once every 12 months, every six months, whatever the thorough examination interval is, we can also offer guidance to the customer and say, right, you really need to be checking and keeping an eye on this, checking this as well as because we can see it's been slightly neglected.

So what frequent challenges do you feel you guys face a lot of the time?

For us at the minute, we're obviously we're paperless in everything we do, other than thorough exam side of it. And we have once we've done quite a few thorough exams, we have a lot of paperwork to file. And so if we went... we've heard there’s an app coming out in April, which would be brilliant because you've not got the paperwork side of it, which also cuts down time filing and the customer gets a digital copy, that if they lose it, you can then send them another one.

You’ve not got paperwork flying everywhere and the customer's not got paperwork flying over there. And it gives the availability to do all the inspections to that specific checklist as well. So it's it will all be available on the app hopefully. And, yeah, we're really looking forward to it.

Yeah. And going full paperless with, with all our papers.

I'm Shaun Groom, I'm general manager of Merlo UK and Ireland.

Do you think that more education is needed around safety regulations for farming equipment?

I think, you know, we work both in agriculture and construction, and it's pretty fair to say that agriculture has been the poor relation when it comes to safety, particularly compared to construction.

So yeah, I think there's always scope to develop and learn and drive forward safety in every aspect of what we do in our daily working lives.

And why are Merlo members of CFTS?

So as a family-owned company, we've been in business for more than 60 years. We're a leading manufacturer of telescopic handlers.  And safety, sustainability, and innovation are our three key watchwords. And, you know, being members of CFTS demonstrates that we take a serious view on safety. We want to show that we're accredited, we're doing things in a right way. And of course, we encourage our customers to work in that right and proper way and look after their operators, their employees and the people around the equipment.

I'm Rob Fisher, I am the CEO of UKMHA, which is the United Kingdom Material Handling Association, and I'm also a director of CFTS. So I'm quite heavily involved in the organisation. The direction for both organisations.

How has the industry changed in your time working in agriculture, and what are some positives and negatives that have come from it?

Well, that's a really interesting question. I think the level of sophistication that we're seeing not only in agriculture but across, the material handling sector as well as, has grown exponentially over the last two decades. I think going back to the early 2000s, the thought of having autonomous vehicles, working in fields or in warehouses was a pipe dream.

And that's now very much a reality. One thing that hasn't changed, though, is the number of incidents and accidents that we are still seeing where people are being injured by materials handling equipment or farming equipment. And that really needs to change.

That's down to safety culture, but also the work the CFTS does around thorough examination, making sure that equipment is safe to use not only from a lifting perspective, the LOLER perspective, but also the PUWER perspective. So making sure that the whole of the equipment is examined properly and is to, the right standard so that it's safe to use.

How do you see the future of farming technology affecting equipment safety?

I think manufacturers are doing their utmost to make sure the equipment is as safe as possible. And that's a journey that we applaud and are thoroughly behind. I think a lot is down to the education not only of the operators, but also the people that work in and around the moving equipment. It's very much a case of, looking at how do you segregate, the vehicles from those pedestrians that are working within those environments to make sure that both parties are safe?

Hi, I'm David Clark, I'm the product manager for Manitou UK.

Do you think more education is needed around safety regulations for farm equipment?

I think in general, I mean there's a I think there's an awareness on farms that that we need to be safe. I think there's possibly because of history and where we've come from and how things have developed with farming.

There's a lot of people who maybe take a few chances, maybe. And we're sort of used to doing things in certain ways. And I think farms probably needs to be a little bit more aware that we do offer safe solutions and certain ways of doing things. And I think there is. Yeah, there's possibly a bit more adoption that could be felt.

We all know that the industry is quite a dangerous place in terms of statistics, but it's kind of there is an awareness of safety. We obviously produce machines that meet all the latest legislation. It's kind of making them more aware of how to use it properly. So training is a key factor for us for sure.

So, if you give one piece of advice to others about equipment safety, what would it be?

I would say to make sure that you're certain your employees and people that are using machines
is to make sure they're trained properly.  Have the machines properly installed on the farm. Make sure they're aware of all the functions and the controls and all the safety systems.

And don't just do it once there's a one off.

Do a little bit more ongoing training as things go on,

because people get comfortable, and we get familiar with how things actually work. But we also then forget how some of the safety systems actually work properly. So maybe as an annual thing, just do a little review, take a day out and actually just, you know, take your machinery on farm just to spend a bit more time with your staff and actually walk around them and make sure they understand all the safety features on them.

How the emergency stops are, where things are located. And it doesn't take a lot of time, but it's just again, increasing the awareness really.

How could you see the future of farming technology affecting equipment safety?

That's an interesting one.

I think probably more kind of automation coming into things. Things, doing the machines, doing things for you. So, for example, we already have today automatic parking brakes. It's just something that the operator doesn't have to think about. And I think we will start to see more and more of that process in place where machines are not being completely automated, we’re just taking that responsibility off the operators for some of those actions that are in place.

We still rely on operators at the end of the day they are still in control of the machines and we still need, you know, good training and good understanding from them at the end of the day.

But yeah, I think we'll, we'll start to see some elements coming, coming in in terms of safety and things that will be interesting.

So, my name is Matthew Kennedy.

I'm one of the technical managers for CFTS. There are three of us, but I cover the the south of England.

What are LOLER and PUWER and why are they important for farmers. Why is it critical to comply with both?

So, when it comes to, agricultural equipment, they are covered by both LOLER and PUWER. LOLER is the lifting parts of the equipment. So, we're talking, the mast, the boom, the forks, and the PUWER Is any other item. For example, brakes, steering, and tyres. But under thorough examination, both items should be inspected. And it's important to say that not all inspections comply with both sets of guidance.

Can you share common misconceptions about compliance?

A lot of people think you only need one inspection at the time you have the equipment. The machine needs regular, thorough examination. It's not just once. Once in its lifetime. It's once a year, once every six months, depending on the use of the equipment. And also, we understand a lot of people believe that you, you don't need to comply with LOLER if you are the only person
using that equipment. That's a fallacy.

You must always have your thorough examination carried out if anybody is working within the vicinity of the equipment. Another misconception is, you only need to use, you can appoint your own examiner for the equipment as well. So, it doesn't have to be someone appointed by the insurance company or inspection company. You as the user of the equipment.

You can appoint your examiner for the equipment.

I'm Kari Hearn, I'm the BAGMA training manager. Been doing this for... Well, I’ve been with BAGMA 16 years. And been doing this current job role for the last 10-12 years now.

What more can you tell us about BAGMA?

We've been trading for over 100 years now, and we represent the suppliers and the dealers. We have, various service providers who help and assist our members and through any insurance training, banking, that sort of thing. How aware are your members,
actually of thorough examinations?

When we deliver our training. We have a a structure of going through not just the safety,
the importance of a thorough examination, what to look for and how to report any defects, major issues and those who we train, you know, they report it correctly and fill out correct documentation.

Hi. Good morning. My name's Nick Darking I'm the GM at BAGMA.

Is safety a concern among your members?

Yeah, I think safety is always a concern amongst our members. And hence we deliver a lot of training around, safety in the workplace. Handover and insulation training in particular. Important that equipment is handed over in the correct fashion, and an end user is left feeling that they've got a good understanding of how the piece of kit that they bought is operating.

Finally, how's your experience of LAMMA been so far?

It's been absolutely tremendous. We've not been here for a few years now, and we've we've come back and we've been very fortunate that we've had support from our service
providers Global on the stand. And that's been absolutely great for us. But yeah, it's been a great experience first day and we're really looking forward to the second day now.

Some really interesting perspectives there. Ade, what do you think stood out to you the most?

So last year, the one thing which stood out the most was responsibilities.

And I've said this a few times now, but it's really important that the end user understands that the ultimate responsibility to make sure that the machine is safe to use on site is theirs.

When they employ a competent person to do a thorough examination and a service
that's only a small time frame in that year they need to make sure that daily checks are done.

Of course.

They need to make sure that the machine is fit for purpose where it's being used. They need to make sure that their drivers are competent and trained. If they're employing a competent person
to do the inspection, they need to make sure that their competent person is competent, okay?

And that's what the CFTS scheme and training does.

It proves that they are competent to work on machines, which they work on day in and day out.

So that was my take home what about your...

Yeah

Take on this.

The main thing I was amazed with was, was that even after all these years, we still got people out there who don't know that they have to get this piece of equipment done every, at least every 12 months. As you know, that can be a lot less depending on, the rules and regs in the background. But yeah, there’s still people to teach still people to make aware out there. And if, if we reach as many of those as possible then we know that's a positive for me.
Yeah.

So it's great to hear that our members, know their responsibilities. So we must be doing something right, Simon?

I think so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, one, one company came on to the stand, one member of ours, and they'd invested that much in preaching the CFTS gospel, if you like, that they’d had QR codes put on the back of their hoodies, which took them to the thorough examination, website, and to book a thorough.

So it just shows that the, the members we have got are being proactive. And ultimately, you know, we're pushing the, pushing the cause.

Yep.

There is value within the scheme.

Without a doubt.

Because we have a high retention.

We do.

We have members who join us year on year. And typically we have between 40 and 60 companies that join us to be part of our scheme. And we've not had many companies
who have decided to go their own way.
Of course. Talking about retention, Ade how many members have, we actually got now? Over 850 I think?

Member depots.

Yeah.

Yeah. Member depots.

So competent persons we're talking above 3000 now, I think?

3000 competent persons on the CFTS database, national database, should I say, who are competent to carry out thorough examinations. We have just launched our new lifting accessory course for those guys who — and girls — who want to learn how to inspect, small lifting accessories, like mobile accessories, like chains and slings, etc.

So, we've got three courses coming up.

And then of course we've got the app which is coming along. That's going to be a revolutionary addition, shall we say, which of course, we're going to go into in the next episode of the podcast, but it's going to be good, Ade, innit?

Yeah. Working in the background. So, stay tuned. Hit that subscribe button. Thumbs up.

Yeah.

And be ready and waiting for the next episode.

Brilliant.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.